Jeans and a T-shirt can be feminine. It's about the woman wearing the clothes, not the clothes on the woman.
It has become a pretty lazy generation, I'll give you that.
Genesis
· 9 months ago
It's good to know there are guys out there who feel this way. Sometimes I feel like guys want us to be wonderwoman...
I want a man who is in touch with his sensitive side a bit, but I still want a MAN - strong and a hard worker...a guy who knows it's ultimately his responsibility to provide for the most part.
Cj
· 9 months ago
When I married my husband I was the primary bread winner in the household. I left a successful career outside the home to stay home with my children. I do all of the cooking and cleaning AND I now have a successful career that allows me to stay home and continue to be as Mrs. Cleaver as I possibly can.
You will rarely, if ever, see me in a tee-shirt if I'm out at a social event; grocery shopping and playdates don't count. I may wear jeans, but I like do try to look my best when I'm out being social.
So, I guess what I'm saying is that I appreciate your post and although I'm sure there are women out there who would be inclined to disagree - I don't. I agree with you that just as men can be both manly and sensitive at the same time, women can also be feminine and strong at the same time.
And you know what? It's nice when men look and smell their best too.
tdhurst
· 9 months ago
Dani- I agree, at times they can. It really is the woman behind it.
Genesis- No, I just want both sides to be equal. Women seem to have lost a lot of what they used to do, men have gained some.
Cj- Well, you're Wonder Woman, but we already knew that. I agree, many guys don't try all that hard. What I'm upset about is that too many Gen Y ladies are losing what makes them female. This whole equality thing is for equal RIGHTS, but we don't all have to act and dress alike.
Xavierism
· 9 months ago
I miss women that dressed like real women. One of my girlfriends will only wear jeans during the weekends. She has great legs and and they're gems when she's wearing pumps. If only more women were like her...
I also miss men dressing like real men. What happened to slacks? Most men wear jeans...and not the right size. I'm spoiled by Hollywood's glam of the 40's. Women and men knew how to dress the part.
Thanks for sharing!
opal
· 9 months ago
here's how it works:
a woman who wants to attract "a rugged guy who can take charge when he needs to, be a man when [she] need[s] him to be" will wear a skirt.
a woman who wants to attract an entirely different kind of guy who would never think of telling a woman what to wear, much less define himself as "rugged," will wear whatever she wants.
it works out pretty well.
Noelle
· 9 months ago
I wanted to wear a skirt to work this morning. I really did. But it's f-ing SNOWING in Seattle in March. I think people in the Northwest often dress for warmth. Sad, but true. I'm wearing slacks and a sweater. But just you wait. Dresses and skirts should be just around the corner.
I think it's about comfort. About simplicity. About not being perceived as a "girly-girl." And about being decidedly low-maintenance.
But I also see more of a slide back to a sort of retro-femininity. I have more and more conversations with girlfriends about cooking and cleaning. I own 3 aprons! I see updates from friends on FB about baking and knitting and making fabulous meals. Just look at the success of Mad Men - I see guys wanting to be Don Draper. And women wanting to look like Joan Holloway.
I agree that it's the woman behind the clothes. I also think there's a distinction between wearing baggy jeans and a man's t shirt, and wearing jeans that hug every curve and a feminine top (that happens to be short-sleeved).
Kelley
· 9 months ago
They're not dressing like you, Tyler. You dress like a woman.
tdhurst
· 9 months ago
Noelle- of course weather dictates most dressing options. I just believe that the sexes are inheriting the WORST qualities of the other and that's not a good thing.
Genesis
· 9 months ago
I would also like to add that I am tired of Men dressing in wrinkled T shirts or ripped/baggy jeans and the messy hair look. Did you just get out of bed? Stop looking like shit.
tdhurst
· 9 months ago
Genesis- I'll give you the tshirts and ripped/baggy jeans, but I know you aren't talking about MY hair.
Marc
· 9 months ago
Hey, kid, you wouldn't know what feminism is even if it walked right in front of you and smacked you in the face. Oh, and stop with refering to women as "you ladies," it's pretty fucking condescending.
You're in for a ruth awakening if you think feminism gives a shit about what you prefer women to wear, or that they're here for your own viewing pleasure. Either take a woman for what she wants to wear, or shut the fuck up.
Women don't want to "be like men." They want the same privileges and respect that are given to men - maybe that's the part of feminism you missed. The next time time you feel you want "femininity" back or want to see someone in a dress, go fucking buy one and wear it, because women don't give a shit about what you want when it comes to their personal choices - and as well they shouldn't.
tdhurst
· 9 months ago
Marc- Thank you for responding so intelligently. Glad to have people like you around to set me straight.
md
· 9 months ago
Would this have such a negative reaction if it were "What happened to chivalry" and written by a women?
I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with what's being said here. People have chosen to take it one step further, as if the idea of girls having a comfortable relationship with a past idea of fashion/femininity somehow means ALL past ideas are inseparable from it. Wearing dresses suddenly means being a stay at home mom who can't vote?
You can like the idea of wearing jackets, dress coats and a hat for men, without it turning into a smoking/drinking/racism/homophobia fest a la Mad Men. The same goes for what Tyler has said here.
People are getting upset about an idea associated with ideas from a certain time that are, though related, not connected to the point of a complete lack of an ability to distinguish between them.
Dani
· 9 months ago
Geez, one guy with a blog says he likes the way women look in a dress, and some think it's the end of equality as we know it. In this chick's opinion, political-correctness is a rather silly concept.
Men and women are different. We have different genetic make-ups, in order to appeal to the opposite sex (for the most part). There is nothing wrong with someone having a thing for women in sundresses.
My real beef with this beyond how women dress, is "We get nothing." I honestly don't think that's the case, although as I said up at the top in the comments I do agree this generation has become decidedly lazier. Maybe this is a more relevant issue to discuss?
Rebecca
· 9 months ago
I don't like your post at all. And if I would have read it any other day besides today I'm sure I wouldn't have been that nice.
But today, I wore a dress to work. And I keep getting complimented. Funny, I feel sexier and more competent in my tight black jeans than this dress, but men obviously like the dress. I think that shows men haven't evolved all that much, not women :)
Besides, most women dress far better than men, and that's true in my office and social life as well. Good debate, always controversial.
Cj
· 9 months ago
I agree with Dani.
Also, specifically, just as Tyler may think women look more feminine or even possibly more attractive in a sundress, there are plenty of guys who are turned on by women in overalls, uniforms, formal gowns... etc. I don't think he was saying all the girls should put on sundresses and prance around.
A woman who is comfortable in her own skin is going to be more attractive wearing jeans and a tee-shirt than a woman who feels self-conscious no matter what she's wearing.
I think some women believe that being feminine makes them appear weak and that just isn't the case.
Laziness - yes, Dani, I see it in all generations of men and women and increasingly so. Services and electronic luxuries of today are definitely contributors.
I do know of women who are housewives and take care of the kids, but Dad works outside the home and then he comes home to do the cooking and cleaning as well. Whether or not anyone is lazy in those homes is none of my business, but I see a lot more men taking over the previously assumed women's roles. I'm not judging by any means - if it works for them, then that's great. I've told my husband time and again that he looks damn sexy pushing that mop around the kitchen floor. ;-)
Noelle
· 9 months ago
One person's efficiency is another person's laziness.
Then there are those sick of being marketed to and wanting to be allowed to just be comfortable with who we are and not have to mask it with the latest lotions and potions.
Google "Is Chivalry dead?" People love to talk about and get all worked up about these gender role topics.
Ultimately, I think it's about being comfortable with one's self - male or female. Don't wear a skirt because Tyler tells you to. Wear it because you want to.
Evo Terra
· 9 months ago
Yeah, and what ever happened to the milkman? Or when kids came out and pumped your gas for you? And when we had to chop our own firewood to heat our homes? Or kill our own food? Or fight off rivals so we could lead the troop? Or learn to extract oxygen straight from the atmosphere?
Welcome to Change. Pining for the past won't bring it back. Fads and styles may come back, but forward is the only way.
Perhaps a more fruitful discussion centers around how masculinity and femininity are evolving in today's world?
(Not that I don't dig a dress that barely fits, you understand...)
tdhurst
· 9 months ago
Rebecca- Smart, capable, take charge women who can dress well should be ruling the world. Not sure why they're not yet.
Noelle- EXACTLY. It's more important to BE the part than act the part. Too often I see people acting, rather than being.
Sounds like your husband could be in this book! :-)
tdhurst
· 9 months ago
Evo- I don't think femininity and masculinity are evolving, I think they're mixing and diluting each other. That's the disappointing part. We can and should be better.
I'd say you and your wife are exactly who I'm NOT talking about.
Evan
· 9 months ago
What actually is 'masculine' and what is 'feminine?' If they have straight definitions, it's definitely not up to YOU to create them.
Women didn't fight to become men. They fight to be treated like humans. They wanted to have the same rights as men. Hell, they're still fighting the good fight. And to call women 'you ladies' is very rude. How about just omitting that?
Jeans are much more practical than dresses and I see no reason why a woman must wear a dress. She can look just as feminine in jeans and a tee-shirt. Most of the women I know loathe skirts and dresses and would prefer to wear pants.
And how the fuck would you know that women of this generation are being raised to be lazy? All the women I know can cook and clean like nobody's business, as well as mow the lawn, and use tools. It's the males that don't know how or just decide they're too goddamn lazy to help out, and they're getting away with it. Women don't get away with being lazy.
And, funny, most women don't want a rugged man who takes charge. They want a man who will see them as an equal partner in a relationship.
Perhaps you should get off your contradictory high-horse and realize that equal rights means just that. Males can act like "women" and females can act like "men." There aren't any genetic reasons that force us to be feminine or masculine. It's society and culture. The only thing gender gives us are physical traits and some hormones. Those don't decide if we're lazy, good at math, or a great bargain shopper.
jak
· 9 months ago
What happened to men wearing well-fitting three piece suits everywhere?
More to the point, why should I care that you want me to be more feminine? I'd rather be seen as competent and strong any day.
I wish that a woman in any clothes could be seen as both feminine and competent. When you look at a woman, however she's dressed, you shouldn't just see "female." you should see "entire accomplished person."
Eresbel
· 9 months ago
So you require women to be more feminine so you can feel more masculine?
Puh-lease. A pathetic attempt to try and dictate what women wear. And yes, this would be just as insulting if it were written by a woman and about chivalry - chivalry is dead because some very smart people decided that being female wasn't actually a handicap and that people should be nice to each other regardless of gender.
The really sad thing is that you think you respect women.
Lynne
· 9 months ago
I don't feel any less about myself because I'm not a good cook. And why should I? I'm talented in other areas, and can offer other things to the world. So what that I don't like house work. Are you saying that these things are solely a woman's job? And that we should shrink away in a corner and cry because we aren't good at them, or don't enthusiastically whistle like Snow White whilst sweeping the cottage floor?
I'm sorry but this blog was full of anecdotal bull shit. Maybe you met a few women who "can't take care of themselves" but I have done just fine, even with a few dishes in the sink, and a slightly overflowing hamper. My college degree is more important to me anyway. Maybe you have your own issues with neatness, and cleanliness, but don't blame that on women.
As far as clothes are concerned, I wear what's comfotable for me, and what's appropriate for the weather. Plain and simple. I will dress up when I need to, but even then, it will be what I feel good in.
I am a human being, not some second rate person placed on this earth to serve, or amuse anyone else. And we don't need your permission or approval for equal rights.
tdhurst
· 9 months ago
To all of you who contributed to the debate, thanks so much.
Amanda
· 9 months ago
"This whole equality thing is for equal RIGHTS, but we don’t all have to act and dress alike"
Exactly, tdhurst. Women have fought for the right to chose for themselves what they wear everyday. They fought for the right to be treated as humans, to be able to decide for themselves how they want to show themselves off to the rest of the world. I don't know how many men you see walking around in mini-skirts and high heels, or how many women you see in a man's three piece suit, but I certainly haven't seen many. If all humans, regardless of gender, are treated as humans, they likely are not going to become clones of one another. So you're all for women's rights, just as long as they dress in such a way that you find visually pleasing. Does this seem contradictory to you at all?
Or this: "they should be given the right to choose and have every right to look any way they want...What happened to dressing like women? Why not sundresses (awwwww yeah)?"
Really? So you're ok with women having the right to decide for themselves how they look, as long as you can stare at them and become aroused. That's disgusting. Do you really think that women exist for your viewing pleasure?
Since you see yourself as such a man, perhaps you could grow up and stop whining that all persons with breasts and hips should bow down to your whims and dress in such a way that you can get your rocks off whenever you see them walk by.
Tyler Hurst
· 9 months ago
Feel free to debate my ideas. Feel free to disagree with them. Personal attacks are ridiculous.
Jill
· 9 months ago
I suppose you'd adore me and my closet full of dresses... until I opened my mouth, that is.
When I put a dress on, I put a dress on because its what I want; not because I am hoping to please the men (or women) I may encounter along the way. I'm sorry Tyler, but I think you really missed the point here - feminism is about intellectual equality, women being given the same respect and freedom as men. Which, in part, means acknowledging the fact that women do not exist or dress for your viewing pleasure.
Gender is a social construct, and as such masculine and feminine are relative; I believe in the personal freedom to be who you are, regardless of the gender tropes that society feels you should adhere to.
And, just as a side note, I'll admit to being one woman who doesn't yearn for a "manly man" I have no interest in sports, power-tools, or whatever it is "manly men" are supposed to be into, and no patience for those who feel the need to deny their emotions... I prefer a man I can relate to, someone who likes to read, watch the TV shows I'm into, and yes, even talk about his feelings.
I hope you find a woman who loves to wear pretty little sundresses while she cooks your dinner, if that floats your boat I am certainly not one to judge; just please, don't assume what you want is what we all want - some of us are grateful for the blur in gender norms.
tdhurst
· 9 months ago
Jill- When did I say I never wanted women to open their mouths? Are you serious with this? Read it again. Never did I say I wanted I girl in a sundress who cooked my dinner, either.
Where are the majority of you coming from? Feministing? Marc BASHED me before any of you ever had a chance to read what I wrote. My piece was a far more light hearted look at how I think women can be powerful and still feminine, but far too many of you crazies (yes, crazies, 'cause the majority of commenters were MEAN) took it and run with it.
This is why it's tough to take people who call themselves feminists seriously. You come across as brash man haters. These comments are closed. Thank you very little.
Eh, screw it. Bring it on.
diana
· 9 months ago
Tdhurst- "for the love of god please stop dressing like us" since when are jeans and pants a strictly male attire? I mean, I guess in the good ole prehistoric times, women walked around ind resses (sundresses as you say) and men walked around in jeans..I guess clothing is an inherent part of pur biology and we are BORN knowing that those with a vagina wear dresses and those with a penis wear pants. This entry is so ludicrous I don't know where to start-not to mention that you part from the "axiom" that pants are inherently menswear. First of all, revisit history and you will see that both men and women have worn robes, garments such as the ones the beloved Jesus wore. Did he walk around in pants and tell his mom to don a sundress? I guess the Romans were "sissies" since they wore skirt-like attires. Hmmm.. The Pope is definitely feminine as well!! What's this "you'd better be good at doing man things" What are exactly man things?? Mowing the lawn? OMG! I don't have a penis so I guess I am biologically incapable of fixing a car, mowing a lawn, and all other presumed "male" activities!
diana
· 9 months ago
OMYGOD! fewmininity and masculinity (human-created terms, by the way tyler) are diluting!!!!!! What will happen to the Earth?? To the human race? God forbid we get rid of socially prescribed gender roles!!!!! It's the apocalyspe!! By the way, Tyler, you really have a stereotyped, cliched view of feminists. Get in touch with me and you'd be surprised. PS- u don't look like the most attractive guy to be telling women to wear sundresses PSS- Sundresses are godawful and not even sexy. Even my grandma knows that
tdhurst
· 9 months ago
Diana - let me guess, you're from feministing.com. Argue my ideas, don't resort to insults. I'm tired of people like you flinging insults around when the rest of us are looking for real debate.
Get in touch with you? You sound like a bitch. I'm not sure I'd be able to handle your poor grammar and multiple exclamation marks.
Dresses and skirts are inherently man created, feminine traits, yes.
Did you really bring Jesus into this? You realize religion is a series of stories people made up to explain things that science couldn't, right?
Jill
· 9 months ago
I didn't accuse you of not wanting women to open their mouths - the point I was trying to make, in a somewhat sarcastic way, is that even a women who dresses in a way that you approve of (like me) might not agree with your belief that the :mixing" of gender traits is bringing out the wost in humanity. Thus, you'd like me (the way I look) until I spoke (and disagreed with you.)
I know you never came out and said you wanted a girl in a sundress to cook you dinner, but by bemoaning the fact that women no longer dress in sundresses and "feminine" attire, and then later claiming that, "We [men] get nothing. We get a generation of women raised by their parents with no idea how to cook, how to dress and how to keep up your half of the arrangement" you are implying that you want a woman who will wear a dress, cook, and clean... ie. keep up her half of the arrangement.
I never called you crazy and I truly do not appreciate that title... is it crazy to believe that people are too complex to be boxed into specific gender tropes? Some women wear dresses and like to play sports, some women wear pants but knot and cook, some men are "manly" but still enjoy cleaning, some men are emotional but know how to fix cars... WHATEVER.
I think its just ridiculous to generalize as much as you have, thinking like this puts pressure on both women and men to behave in a certain way - befitting of their gender stereotype... which, I in my opinion, is a crazy thing to want.
tdhurst
· 9 months ago
Jill- no, I want a woman who keeps up her half of the bargain, PERIOD, whether that's traditional female tasks or male tasks. Too many women see dressing in a feminine way (yes, like a girl, meaning skirts and dresses, men can't really wear those, ya know) as somehow demeaning.
To paraphrase Debbie on my newest post, women can be pretty and powerful.
Life is about generalizations, and whether I you agree with how I went about it, why waste time on how I said it and focus on WHAT I said?
And most of the feministing.com people seem crazy, yeah. To put it into perspective, switch up the genders and topics and call it masculinity.com. If a herd of members attacked someone who wrote a post that made them think and possibly disagreed with, you'd call them crazy too. Again, if the insults hadn't started flowing, this wouldn't be a problem. I like debate.
Jill
· 9 months ago
I like debate too - which is why I keep responding to you - and I hope I haven't insulted you, that never was my intent, I simply hoped to act as a rational feminist voice and explain why so many women were upset by what you said.
I still don't understand what you mean by keeping up her "half" of the bargain, but that simply may be a difference in how you and I approach relationships. In my life relationships have been less about roles and more about teaming up to get through life, enjoy each-other's company, and help each-other to grow. I suppose I've never seen anything within a relationship as a "job" or a "role" that falls upon one person. I'm honestly curious though, do you mean like "taking out the garbage" and "cooking" as tasks? How can a woman take on the "male" tasks in a relationship? I really do want to understand where you're coming from!
Again, I mean no disrespect - I understand what its like to be an opinionated blogger and feel attacked for your opinions I just want to make YOU think, in that way that you've made ME think.
tdhurst
· 9 months ago
Jill- by tasks I mean anything that COULD be done by either sex but may be traditionally done by one. To me, too many women think femininity is about shunning traditional female roles INSTEAD of taking on roles that better suit them as a person.
For instance, I know girls who refuse to cook, clean, take care of the house or mind the kids, yet they don't want to get a full-time job to support the family. They tell me they are feminists because they are standing up for women's rights. Sure, these same women may do traditional male things like yardwork, lifting heavy things, etc., but they are really, really missing the point. They think that in order to get treated equally, that they should act like a man and do man things, which is ridiculous. Do what you want, but don't shun tasks simply because you think they are demeaning, because they are not.
Oh, and I KNOW why so many women are upset. Perfectly aware how what I posted and what I'm saying now is controversial. Have no problem with being told I'm wrong.
Jill
· 9 months ago
I think we agree a lot more than we realize. Women (and men, for that matter) who use feminism as an excuse to do NOTHING of use in a relationship infuriate me as well. In my opinion these people are not feminists, they are simply using the movement to justify their laziness.
However, with that said, I believe that we've progressed enough as a society that tasks should not be defined in terms of male and female any longer. Both genders are equally capable of completing the myriad of tasks that are divided between the genders - thus, tasks should be divided within relationships, based simply upon the preferences of the two individuals in that relationship.
If you want to "wear the pants" in your relationship, I certainly won't judge you but please don't pass judgment upon the myriad of women who choose to "wear the pants" - both literally and figuratively - in their own lives.
Eva
· 9 months ago
My favorite part of your post… “both sexes are inheriting the WORST qualities of the other. Men have learned to be overly sensitive, women have learned to be sloppy and be waited on. Knock it off.”
Can’t argue with that.
Though there are times where wearing a “sundress and ponytail,” as you put it, can be counterproductive - such as at work.
Selina
· 9 months ago
'We [men] get nothing. We get a generation of women raised by their parents with no idea how to cook, how to dress and how to keep up your half of the arrangement'
Aw diddums, feeling so hard done by. Here's an idea, learn how to cook yourself. Then you won't have to rely on another person to do it. A relationship is not about taking sides in jobs, its is not an office you are in, it is a relationship. You say that women have learned to be waited on like men do? Maybe so but why is it when a man does it, its fine, when a woman does it, she's lazy? It is because its considered a man's prerogative? What world do you live in?
tdhurst
· 9 months ago
Selina - oh come on. what you pulled doesn't even make sense out of context. I do know how to cook and yes, it's lazy when men do it, too. Like Eva agreed with beforehand, “both sexes are inheriting the WORST qualities of the other. Men have learned to be overly sensitive, women have learned to be sloppy and be waited on. Knock it off.”
Stop taking my comments out of context. Read the whole thing again, please.
Cate
· 9 months ago
So, um, stop dating these so-called lazy, unemployed women. Find a woman who likes wearing skirts. You're entitled to your own personal taste.
But don't act like the rest of us "ladies" should give a fuck.
tdhurst
· 9 months ago
Cate- What's wrong with calling women ladies?
Gnomes
· 8 months ago
Wow. This is enlightening and highly disgusting. I think I just barfed a little, while sitting here at my computer, in old sweatpants and a T-shirt...but that's not cause I wanna be like a "man". It's because I genuinely dislike you. Also, WTF! Women are not visual accessories to compliment your sloppy wardrobe.
tdhurst
· 8 months ago
Gnomes-- Thanks so much for contributing. It's complement, not compliment. I hope your clothes don't get too stained.
gothchiq
· 8 months ago
"Arrangement"? What arrangement? I don't have an arrangement with anybody regarding how I dress or how I run my household. Nor do I need one. I support myself, I wear what I want, and yet, somehow, I have zillions of friends without having to conform to someone else's idea of what I "should" look like.
Yes, I do have a male partner. He loves me the way I am. Those who don't can just keep on truckin'.
Monica McNamara
· 5 months ago
You are pretty tough on us babes (huh-hemmm). But I shouldn't even be commenting here. I know I'll start something. I believe everyone...man or woman..should just be who they are. I don't need you to open a door or throw your coat down on a puddle for me to step over. I'll be me and be considerate of you, and I expect the same. Oh, and by the way, I would really like it if men's clothes lent themselves to much more of a masculine appearance, so I could appreciate the "finer" of the species.
I am being a smart alec...I know... but that's what I felt like when you talked about sun dresses and ponytails.
tdhurst
· 5 months ago
Monica - yes, I agree with you on many of those points. I was planning on writing a piece of the wussification of men, but after being torn apart by tons of dumbasses who assumed I want women to wear short skirts and cook for me (sure, that would be great, but boring and unfulfilling) I didn't care that much anymore.
Oddly, the most successful women I know laughed at this post, while those struggling or just unmotivated were pissed. You seem like you're in the former group, and that's good.
All Comments
It has become a pretty lazy generation, I'll give you that.
I want a man who is in touch with his sensitive side a bit, but I still want a MAN - strong and a hard worker...a guy who knows it's ultimately his responsibility to provide for the most part.
You will rarely, if ever, see me in a tee-shirt if I'm out at a social event; grocery shopping and playdates don't count. I may wear jeans, but I like do try to look my best when I'm out being social.
So, I guess what I'm saying is that I appreciate your post and although I'm sure there are women out there who would be inclined to disagree - I don't. I agree with you that just as men can be both manly and sensitive at the same time, women can also be feminine and strong at the same time.
And you know what? It's nice when men look and smell their best too.
Genesis- No, I just want both sides to be equal. Women seem to have lost a lot of what they used to do, men have gained some.
Cj- Well, you're Wonder Woman, but we already knew that. I agree, many guys don't try all that hard. What I'm upset about is that too many Gen Y ladies are losing what makes them female. This whole equality thing is for equal RIGHTS, but we don't all have to act and dress alike.
I also miss men dressing like real men. What happened to slacks? Most men wear jeans...and not the right size. I'm spoiled by Hollywood's glam of the 40's. Women and men knew how to dress the part.
Thanks for sharing!
a woman who wants to attract "a rugged guy who can take charge when he needs to, be a man when [she] need[s] him to be" will wear a skirt.
a woman who wants to attract an entirely different kind of guy who would never think of telling a woman what to wear, much less define himself as "rugged," will wear whatever she wants.
it works out pretty well.
Interesting article, coined phrase and everything:
http://www.observer.com/2008/urbane-tomboys
I think it's about comfort. About simplicity. About not being perceived as a "girly-girl." And about being decidedly low-maintenance.
But I also see more of a slide back to a sort of retro-femininity. I have more and more conversations with girlfriends about cooking and cleaning. I own 3 aprons! I see updates from friends on FB about baking and knitting and making fabulous meals. Just look at the success of Mad Men - I see guys wanting to be Don Draper. And women wanting to look like Joan Holloway.
I agree that it's the woman behind the clothes. I also think there's a distinction between wearing baggy jeans and a man's t shirt, and wearing jeans that hug every curve and a feminine top (that happens to be short-sleeved).
I'll give you the tshirts and ripped/baggy jeans, but I know you aren't talking about MY hair.
You're in for a ruth awakening if you think feminism gives a shit about what you prefer women to wear, or that they're here for your own viewing pleasure. Either take a woman for what she wants to wear, or shut the fuck up.
Women don't want to "be like men." They want the same privileges and respect that are given to men - maybe that's the part of feminism you missed. The next time time you feel you want "femininity" back or want to see someone in a dress, go fucking buy one and wear it, because women don't give a shit about what you want when it comes to their personal choices - and as well they shouldn't.
I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with what's being said here. People have chosen to take it one step further, as if the idea of girls having a comfortable relationship with a past idea of fashion/femininity somehow means ALL past ideas are inseparable from it. Wearing dresses suddenly means being a stay at home mom who can't vote?
You can like the idea of wearing jackets, dress coats and a hat for men, without it turning into a smoking/drinking/racism/homophobia fest a la Mad Men. The same goes for what Tyler has said here.
People are getting upset about an idea associated with ideas from a certain time that are, though related, not connected to the point of a complete lack of an ability to distinguish between them.
Men and women are different. We have different genetic make-ups, in order to appeal to the opposite sex (for the most part). There is nothing wrong with someone having a thing for women in sundresses.
My real beef with this beyond how women dress, is "We get nothing." I honestly don't think that's the case, although as I said up at the top in the comments I do agree this generation has become decidedly lazier. Maybe this is a more relevant issue to discuss?
But today, I wore a dress to work. And I keep getting complimented. Funny, I feel sexier and more competent in my tight black jeans than this dress, but men obviously like the dress. I think that shows men haven't evolved all that much, not women :)
Besides, most women dress far better than men, and that's true in my office and social life as well. Good debate, always controversial.
Also, specifically, just as Tyler may think women look more feminine or even possibly more attractive in a sundress, there are plenty of guys who are turned on by women in overalls, uniforms, formal gowns... etc. I don't think he was saying all the girls should put on sundresses and prance around.
A woman who is comfortable in her own skin is going to be more attractive wearing jeans and a tee-shirt than a woman who feels self-conscious no matter what she's wearing.
I think some women believe that being feminine makes them appear weak and that just isn't the case.
Laziness - yes, Dani, I see it in all generations of men and women and increasingly so. Services and electronic luxuries of today are definitely contributors.
I do know of women who are housewives and take care of the kids, but Dad works outside the home and then he comes home to do the cooking and cleaning as well. Whether or not anyone is lazy in those homes is none of my business, but I see a lot more men taking over the previously assumed women's roles. I'm not judging by any means - if it works for them, then that's great. I've told my husband time and again that he looks damn sexy pushing that mop around the kitchen floor. ;-)
Then there are those sick of being marketed to and wanting to be allowed to just be comfortable with who we are and not have to mask it with the latest lotions and potions.
Google "Is Chivalry dead?" People love to talk about and get all worked up about these gender role topics.
Ultimately, I think it's about being comfortable with one's self - male or female. Don't wear a skirt because Tyler tells you to. Wear it because you want to.
Welcome to Change. Pining for the past won't bring it back. Fads and styles may come back, but forward is the only way.
Perhaps a more fruitful discussion centers around how masculinity and femininity are evolving in today's world?
(Not that I don't dig a dress that barely fits, you understand...)
Noelle- EXACTLY. It's more important to BE the part than act the part. Too often I see people acting, rather than being.
Sounds like your husband could be in this book! :-)
I'd say you and your wife are exactly who I'm NOT talking about.
If they have straight definitions, it's definitely not up to YOU to create them.
Women didn't fight to become men. They fight to be treated like humans. They wanted to have the same rights as men. Hell, they're still fighting the good fight.
And to call women 'you ladies' is very rude. How about just omitting that?
Jeans are much more practical than dresses and I see no reason why a woman must wear a dress. She can look just as feminine in jeans and a tee-shirt. Most of the women I know loathe skirts and dresses and would prefer to wear pants.
And how the fuck would you know that women of this generation are being raised to be lazy? All the women I know can cook and clean like nobody's business, as well as mow the lawn, and use tools. It's the males that don't know how or just decide they're too goddamn lazy to help out, and they're getting away with it. Women don't get away with being lazy.
And, funny, most women don't want a rugged man who takes charge. They want a man who will see them as an equal partner in a relationship.
Perhaps you should get off your contradictory high-horse and realize that equal rights means just that. Males can act like "women" and females can act like "men."
There aren't any genetic reasons that force us to be feminine or masculine. It's society and culture. The only thing gender gives us are physical traits and some hormones. Those don't decide if we're lazy, good at math, or a great bargain shopper.
More to the point, why should I care that you want me to be more feminine? I'd rather be seen as competent and strong any day.
I wish that a woman in any clothes could be seen as both feminine and competent. When you look at a woman, however she's dressed, you shouldn't just see "female." you should see "entire accomplished person."
Puh-lease. A pathetic attempt to try and dictate what women wear. And yes, this would be just as insulting if it were written by a woman and about chivalry - chivalry is dead because some very smart people decided that being female wasn't actually a handicap and that people should be nice to each other regardless of gender.
The really sad thing is that you think you respect women.
I'm sorry but this blog was full of anecdotal bull shit. Maybe you met a few women who "can't take care of themselves" but I have done just fine, even with a few dishes in the sink, and a slightly overflowing hamper. My college degree is more important to me anyway. Maybe you have your own issues with neatness, and cleanliness, but don't blame that on women.
As far as clothes are concerned, I wear what's comfotable for me, and what's appropriate for the weather. Plain and simple. I will dress up when I need to, but even then, it will be what I feel good in.
I am a human being, not some second rate person placed on this earth to serve, or amuse anyone else.
And we don't need your permission or approval for equal rights.
Exactly, tdhurst. Women have fought for the right to chose for themselves what they wear everyday. They fought for the right to be treated as humans, to be able to decide for themselves how they want to show themselves off to the rest of the world. I don't know how many men you see walking around in mini-skirts and high heels, or how many women you see in a man's three piece suit, but I certainly haven't seen many. If all humans, regardless of gender, are treated as humans, they likely are not going to become clones of one another. So you're all for women's rights, just as long as they dress in such a way that you find visually pleasing. Does this seem contradictory to you at all?
Or this: "they should be given the right to choose and have every right to look any way they want...What happened to dressing like women? Why not sundresses (awwwww yeah)?"
Really? So you're ok with women having the right to decide for themselves how they look, as long as you can stare at them and become aroused. That's disgusting. Do you really think that women exist for your viewing pleasure?
Since you see yourself as such a man, perhaps you could grow up and stop whining that all persons with breasts and hips should bow down to your whims and dress in such a way that you can get your rocks off whenever you see them walk by.
When I put a dress on, I put a dress on because its what I want; not because I am hoping to please the men (or women) I may encounter along the way. I'm sorry Tyler, but I think you really missed the point here - feminism is about intellectual equality, women being given the same respect and freedom as men. Which, in part, means acknowledging the fact that women do not exist or dress for your viewing pleasure.
Gender is a social construct, and as such masculine and feminine are relative; I believe in the personal freedom to be who you are, regardless of the gender tropes that society feels you should adhere to.
And, just as a side note, I'll admit to being one woman who doesn't yearn for a "manly man" I have no interest in sports, power-tools, or whatever it is "manly men" are supposed to be into, and no patience for those who feel the need to deny their emotions... I prefer a man I can relate to, someone who likes to read, watch the TV shows I'm into, and yes, even talk about his feelings.
I hope you find a woman who loves to wear pretty little sundresses while she cooks your dinner, if that floats your boat I am certainly not one to judge; just please, don't assume what you want is what we all want - some of us are grateful for the blur in gender norms.
Where are the majority of you coming from? Feministing? Marc BASHED me before any of you ever had a chance to read what I wrote. My piece was a far more light hearted look at how I think women can be powerful and still feminine, but far too many of you crazies (yes, crazies, 'cause the majority of commenters were MEAN) took it and run with it.
This is why it's tough to take people who call themselves feminists seriously. You come across as brash man haters. These comments are closed. Thank you very little.
Eh, screw it. Bring it on.
since when are jeans and pants a strictly male attire? I mean, I guess in the good ole prehistoric times, women walked around ind resses (sundresses as you say) and men walked around in jeans..I guess clothing is an inherent part of pur biology and we are BORN knowing that those with a vagina wear dresses and those with a penis wear pants. This entry is so ludicrous I don't know where to start-not to mention that you part from the "axiom" that pants are inherently menswear. First of all, revisit history and you will see that both men and women have worn robes, garments such as the ones the beloved Jesus wore. Did he walk around in pants and tell his mom to don a sundress? I guess the Romans were "sissies" since they wore skirt-like attires. Hmmm.. The Pope is definitely feminine as well!!
What's this "you'd better be good at doing man things" What are exactly man things?? Mowing the lawn? OMG! I don't have a penis so I guess I am biologically incapable of fixing a car, mowing a lawn, and all other presumed "male" activities!
By the way, Tyler, you really have a stereotyped, cliched view of feminists. Get in touch with me and you'd be surprised.
PS- u don't look like the most attractive guy to be telling women to wear sundresses
PSS- Sundresses are godawful and not even sexy. Even my grandma knows that
Get in touch with you? You sound like a bitch. I'm not sure I'd be able to handle your poor grammar and multiple exclamation marks.
Dresses and skirts are inherently man created, feminine traits, yes.
Did you really bring Jesus into this? You realize religion is a series of stories people made up to explain things that science couldn't, right?
I know you never came out and said you wanted a girl in a sundress to cook you dinner, but by bemoaning the fact that women no longer dress in sundresses and "feminine" attire, and then later claiming that, "We [men] get nothing. We get a generation of women raised by their parents with no idea how to cook, how to dress and how to keep up your half of the arrangement" you are implying that you want a woman who will wear a dress, cook, and clean... ie. keep up her half of the arrangement.
I never called you crazy and I truly do not appreciate that title... is it crazy to believe that people are too complex to be boxed into specific gender tropes? Some women wear dresses and like to play sports, some women wear pants but knot and cook, some men are "manly" but still enjoy cleaning, some men are emotional but know how to fix cars... WHATEVER.
I think its just ridiculous to generalize as much as you have, thinking like this puts pressure on both women and men to behave in a certain way - befitting of their gender stereotype... which, I in my opinion, is a crazy thing to want.
To paraphrase Debbie on my newest post, women can be pretty and powerful.
Life is about generalizations, and whether I you agree with how I went about it, why waste time on how I said it and focus on WHAT I said?
And most of the feministing.com people seem crazy, yeah. To put it into perspective, switch up the genders and topics and call it masculinity.com. If a herd of members attacked someone who wrote a post that made them think and possibly disagreed with, you'd call them crazy too. Again, if the insults hadn't started flowing, this wouldn't be a problem. I like debate.
I still don't understand what you mean by keeping up her "half" of the bargain, but that simply may be a difference in how you and I approach relationships. In my life relationships have been less about roles and more about teaming up to get through life, enjoy each-other's company, and help each-other to grow. I suppose I've never seen anything within a relationship as a "job" or a "role" that falls upon one person. I'm honestly curious though, do you mean like "taking out the garbage" and "cooking" as tasks? How can a woman take on the "male" tasks in a relationship? I really do want to understand where you're coming from!
Again, I mean no disrespect - I understand what its like to be an opinionated blogger and feel attacked for your opinions I just want to make YOU think, in that way that you've made ME think.
For instance, I know girls who refuse to cook, clean, take care of the house or mind the kids, yet they don't want to get a full-time job to support the family. They tell me they are feminists because they are standing up for women's rights. Sure, these same women may do traditional male things like yardwork, lifting heavy things, etc., but they are really, really missing the point. They think that in order to get treated equally, that they should act like a man and do man things, which is ridiculous. Do what you want, but don't shun tasks simply because you think they are demeaning, because they are not.
Oh, and I KNOW why so many women are upset. Perfectly aware how what I posted and what I'm saying now is controversial. Have no problem with being told I'm wrong.
However, with that said, I believe that we've progressed enough as a society that tasks should not be defined in terms of male and female any longer. Both genders are equally capable of completing the myriad of tasks that are divided between the genders - thus, tasks should be divided within relationships, based simply upon the preferences of the two individuals in that relationship.
If you want to "wear the pants" in your relationship, I certainly won't judge you but please don't pass judgment upon the myriad of women who choose to "wear the pants" - both literally and figuratively - in their own lives.
Can’t argue with that.
Though there are times where wearing a “sundress and ponytail,” as you put it, can be counterproductive - such as at work.
Aw diddums, feeling so hard done by. Here's an idea, learn how to cook yourself. Then you won't have to rely on another person to do it. A relationship is not about taking sides in jobs, its is not an office you are in, it is a relationship. You say that women have learned to be waited on like men do? Maybe so but why is it when a man does it, its fine, when a woman does it, she's lazy? It is because its considered a man's prerogative? What world do you live in?
Stop taking my comments out of context. Read the whole thing again, please.
But don't act like the rest of us "ladies" should give a fuck.
Yes, I do have a male partner. He loves me the way I am. Those who don't can just keep on truckin'.
Oh, and by the way, I would really like it if men's clothes lent themselves to much more of a masculine appearance, so I could appreciate the "finer" of the species.
I am being a smart alec...I know... but that's what I felt like when you talked about sun dresses and ponytails.
Oddly, the most successful women I know laughed at this post, while those struggling or just unmotivated were pissed. You seem like you're in the former group, and that's good.
Relationships SHOULD be about working together.